bumping bc I learned abt this recently and it's nuts, further proof that anything tied to lesswrong will never be good for you

been reading sinceriously.blog-mirror.com

ziz's blog

It's super relatable and I love how she says stuff I've been shouting into the void somewhat. It feels gross in a way to go 'but tee hee here's how she's wrong and society is right all along I'm so open minded but smart' and yeah that's a role in me saying this but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I really hate the debucketing- 'you actually have 2 personalities.' I think we have a lot of attendances and traits. maybe we are pretty divided by hemispheres but even if so emotion state, environment, knowledge have a greater effect on actions than which hemisphere is active IMO. Saying there's a part of you which is morally good and pure and can exist on its own is wrong. I'm composed of 'eating is good' and 'people crying is bad' and while I try to strengthen 'eating others is bad' there's no fundamental being which can feed itself while maintaining perfect morality. I hate people killing themselves because 'they were the evil one all along.' TBF it's a good thing if they really were so unable to change and persistently bad. It's wrong to say 'oh well they'll feel better about themself later so they weren't bad.' But none of these people who killed themself were making the world that much worse. Even if you're a serial rapist you can probably cut your balls off and change your environment to somewhere you can't get away with it, and I'm optimistic.

The 'you're not totally dedicated to good so you're not worthy of being in the group' ... The problem is there IS something there- it makes you feel like shit to be around people who deny your reality and values even if just in their actions and not words. But it makes people assume things just like ziz talked about with phylacteries, of people putting their real self and drive away for 'someday' with an excuse, and then ignoring reality to maintain the narrative. I think saying 'I'm totally dedicated really to a better world' is a lie and it leads to ignorance of reality. Part of me deeply cares about solving the world's problems and I try to nurture it, but it's not all of me... I still feel bad about not making everything subordinate to it. Ziz said when men lose that inner drive and clearly acting on saving the world they become rapists and when women do they become enablers. I'm mixed up on this one. I don't think saying 'oh you don't care about hurting people hah everyone has preferences' is acceptable, particularly towards myself, but I also don't care that much about a certain level of suffering for others.

I can understand not saying 'everything is ok because we're doing less evil' but also if we remember all the evil at all times it destroys the mind. Suffering and losing it while being 'good' is not good.

She complained about her attempt to form a nexus of trans girls just attracting too many 'pets' who wanted affection and weren't dedicated to creating a utopia but she could have just understood they weren't super ideological, helped them achieve their affection while not letting them too close so as not to lose her spirit and goals.

part two: https://vincentl3.substack.com/p/keeping-up-with-the-zizians-technohelter-657

reading https://sinceriously.blog-mirror.com/intersex-brains-and-conceptual-warfare

"Being attracted to humans with noncomplementary reproductive stuff is close to the least evolutionarily fit thing, and evolution still failed to stop it."
Yeah I agree that gay uncle hypothesis is silly. I think the theory that some traits which result in gay in males make females more fit makes sense though. It could also be that some predispositions which sometimes result in gay sometimes also result in high fitness males. I don't think this is a failure of evolution.

"I don’t find the “sneaky fucker” hypothesis probable either.) The simplest explanation which fits the data (including nonbrain intersex conditions) is that sexual differentiation is a fragile rube goldberg machine, prone to random breakage. I speculate that humans have intersex brains so often because of evolution pulling out all stops for large brains and breaking things as a side effect."
ok that does make sense but that implies the breakages did not majorly effect fitness. Probably the gay uncle is still less fit than reproducing themself, but does bolster fitness more than you'd think, and some of the intersex conditions, because they don't interfere much haven't been selected against.

"There are heavy social forces against saying “I am a female soul trapped in a male body”, and thereby against believing it. So the force that recognizes it ends up latching onto, “I’m not even human”. Thereby, otherkin. (Otherkin are mostly trans. I’ve spent a lot of time living/working with 2 otherkin, seen them change for the “trans” self-concept given space from cis people.) I have a few times before “realizing I was trans” gotten inexplicably upset at people saying I was a man. I would sometimes layeredly joke/not joke in accordance with my layered beliefs, that I was actually part of the 666th gender, and that my preferred pronouns were “hail Satan”, which sounds a lot like the attack helicopter thing, but pushing me to say that was the most truthy course of action that a part of me could pick."
mmmmmmm what worries me is what if we are all otherkin and tricked into being trans/human/goodness knows what else we've been decieved into haha. of course the solution is to let people try things not to pile on more shame and fear.

"Her revealed preference to coerce men to help her reproduce and support children is a little bit more obvious than the way her utterances on and concepts of trans women are an outgrowth of, “who can be made to reproduce with me with a little help from social reality?”."
yeah a lot of the time the words are there for underlying goals and debate is just ridiculous because it doesn't get at the real reason people are doing things.

"My mom seemed okay with this until the first time we talked and it was clear it was for real, even though she said she knew I wasn’t joking. She was very upset, asking if I was going to have my penis cut off. I said I would like to get rid of the thing but I probably never would because it would be a waste of time and money. And similarly for transitioning at all, I thought at the time. She said I had no idea how happy I could make a woman with it, and, “aren’t you being kind of… selfish?”. I said it was my body and I didn’t think I could get pleasure from sex as a consequence of dysphoria and this was all moot because neither transition sex or romance was likely in my future. She said, “do it for her!” Later, (probably related to how she always wanted me to be in contact more, come to extended family events more, etc.), she said I wasn’t a woman, because women hold families together. It seems some of the most salient aspects of my mom’s concept of gender was whether she was collectively entitled as cis women to sexual gratification from someone, or to them maintaining a theatre of emotional bonds between extended family, something she often pressured me to do for the benefit of her parents. (She since alternated between apologizing for this and denying it ever happened.)"
This one is really good and says a lot about us as people and transitioning

Ah this was the one I was meaning to read

https://sinceriously.blog-mirror.com/fusion

https://cosmologicallyinsignificant.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/some-theories-on-the-causes-of-poverty-ctd/
She linked this, makes a lot of sense

>>194466

I don't like the psyop suggestions. It could be that ziz was pushed in that direction, or assisted as black propaganda but I think it's unlikely. It's like the 'fed' thing where people want to feel like epic revolutionaries who kill people but don't want to live it so they pretend anyone speaking about violence/authentically carying out their very statements is a fed. It doesn't mean their fear is wrong! ziz's life outcomes need to be avoided for everyone, as do right wingers getting themselves arrested with street violence, but they're not able to accept the real reason of 'That's too costly for us for too little benefit and could really hurt people and horrible' because they've built themselves up as infinitely capable.

i posted this in the wrong thread i was reading the thread and misposted sry

>>211966
I would NEVER good boy keep making sadchan what she wants

https://ash987.medium.com/to-milo-shards-and-scraps-604ad7a7f97d
piece written by someone who claims to know milo and audere.

this piece is very good at providing a good summary of their belief system, from a bit of a weird angle tbf
https://default.blog/p/this-is-what-the-zizians-actually

>>194463
yeah i really think the whole debucketing thing was fundamentally confused. everybody other than ziz who does it seems to end up thinking they're "single good". my suspicion is that "single good" is a result of reifying scrupulosity/fear-of-being-a-bad-person into its own personality, and then declaring that personality to be your "good" part. this personality then immediately declares everything in your brain not subordinate to it "evil", because its whole thing is paranoia about evil. this didn't happen to ziz because she'd already gone through the process she describes here: https://sinceriously.blog-mirror.com/my-journey-to-the-dark-side/ to purge herself of scrupulosity. the identification of personalities with hemispheres is just an error. gwen ends up thinking people have two of them because the scrupulosity monster keeps lumping everything else in the brain together due to outgroup homogeneity bias, and once she thinks everyone has two core personalities it's natural to attribute that to the two hemispheres of the brain. since all this is happening in the rationalist/EA community you have a population that's selected for being highly vulnerable to this particular species of brainworm and everybody else keeps having the same experience as gwen.
later, ziz starts thinking that evil people are impersonating "single goods." but a "single good" isn't actually "good" at all, it's just someone who started to believe that scrupulosity is what being a good person is. it's not going to act like somebody with a good personality and an evil personality because that's just not what it actually is, the "good" personality isn't good and the "evil" personality is probably not evil.

>>288256
sometimes i wonder if it's worth trying to parse/understand any of ziz's stuff or if i really am just wasting my time trying to grok any of this. not sure what actual value i would get beyond the morbid curiosity given all the murders

>>288256
>>288277
like just at the most basic level i really doubt the hemispheric stuff is true at all so what's even the point of trying to absorb this ideology

>>288277
i got a lot of value out of reading it, but like i said i think the hemisphere stuff was just incorrect and there isn't much value in that part specifically

Michelle Zajko sent an open letter to the AP. they declined to publish it, but it has leaked.
https://zizians.co/the-only-bombs-i-have-are-truth-bombs
this site has been publishing a bunch of stuff about ziz and the others involved in this case, and while i think the author gets a lot of stuff wrong they're generally operating in good faith which approximately no one else covering this is. the letter was also posted on kiwi farms, the text appears to match between both sources from a quick glance.

>>288256
Agre

>>288256
Agreed "scrupulosity is what being a good person is" Is this true though? It could be, but perhaps it is still harmful in othering neutral parts of the person

for instance the desire to eat when hungry is only good when it drives health and happiness, it's bad when it results in poor diet, or diabetics dying from drinking tons of sugar syrup for instance.

A zizian might label it as part of the bad brain, or perhaps they might correctly label the good times it occurs as the good brain and the bad times it occurs as the bad brain. Maybe that's correct, but I think they'll never defeat it because they are thinking of one thing as 2 different things. The cure is probably not to eliminate 'bad food cravings' but to build up other habits and mechanisms which inhibit them, though they will still exist.

I really like this website- zizians
It's WAY easier to read than

I really like this website- zizians.co
It's WAY easier to read than ziz's long essays. My complements to the writer.

https://zizians.co/2-a-first-attempt-at-saving-the-world

I think 'saving the world' is what ted kaczinski called the power process. It's the process of doing something really useful for the future and being rewarded and smart and happy. It's the same reason these people did well in school- they wanted to get the questions RIGHT and succeed on exams and make everyone proud.

I think this is actually the key part of life, and it's good they identify with it. It's just sometimes overhyped to them perhaps because they don't get to feel good and useful and powerful and loved on the day to day

>>395685
it's easier to read and i think gives a pretty good account of events in a way that doesn't just assume ziz and co. are guilty from the start, but >>285357 is i think a better account of what ziz is actually trying to say with her blog. zizians.co kind of glosses over all the weird rationalist metaphysics because the author doesn't understand it.

"I also may counter some of the lies told about Ziz with my experience of her: she saved my life. She saved me from Alice. For a long time, I believed Alice could “get better.” On the largely rare occasions we spoke, while I was with Alice, Ziz spent those conversations attempting to convince me to leave the human who was beating me with bamboo sticks & hurting me." bazed :3